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do you make your hafla and show videos available to your students only, to attendees, or to the public? Are your students allowed to post footage from your events or do you alone retain that right? Are they allowed to post their own portion of the performance? Are they allowed to post other's performances? How do you handle it when someone wants to post something from a very old show?
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Re: videos and availability
Mon, August 24, 2009 - 6:56 AMOkay- here's the deal...
it's not just your rights you're dealing with- technically, that's an illegal copy of music as well. Dancers taking home a copy of their own performance to music they presumably own is considered legal under the premise of making a back up copy of music they own. distributing that same video anywhere else without license to do so is music piracy and has the potential of landing you in trouble & pissing off musicians/producers.
Any video you do take is technically the property of the photographer, but for public distribution, you would need (or at the very least it would be prudent & polite to ask for) a model release form from performers.
now that you know the legal side of things, here's what we actually do!
We do not allow video taping at our events. We provide a performance DVD to performers & they end up with the full show because no one has time to actually cut the show or cash to pay the videographer to do that. It is understood that this video is for private use and will not be copied, distributed or sold, but we don't make anyone sign anything to that effect. Likewise, for a student recital/show, they are given a copy, and we rely on the teachers (since we do a community program) to make sure students have purchased a copy of the music for their choreography. We really believe in supporting out supporting artists & getting those musicians paid! -
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Re: videos and availability
Mon, August 24, 2009 - 7:36 AMI think you have a good idea & that's similar to what I do; it works fine if everyone cooperates with the "understanding". However I've seen repeated incidents of students doing things they "should know better" than to do, like copying video & music for each other. So once something is out of your hands, there's not that much you can do about what happens with it. Unless you want to get all lawyer-y on them. -
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Re: videos and availability
Tue, August 25, 2009 - 8:53 AM"We do not allow video taping at our events. We provide a performance DVD to performers & they end up with the full show because no one has time to actually cut the show or cash to pay the videographer to do that. It is understood that this video is for private use and will not be copied, distributed "
Does this mean that the dancer does not have the right to put her video on youtube or on her website?
All of the currnet music controversy is going to culminate into a big problem for dance perfomers.
Before too long, you are going to have to be a musician in order to be a dancer, because you will have to dance to your own music if you cannot afford licensing for someone else's. -
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Re: videos and availability
Tue, August 25, 2009 - 3:00 PMtechnically, no- unless you have performance rights saying you can, or the music falls under public domain- which applies to almost nothing that you can actually get your hands on. Now, a lot of musicians don't mind it being on you tube, etc, and some artists (Saqra has a whole series available) put out on their CDs that it is okay to use the music for certain purposes, like shows, class, etc.
You tube leaves enforcement up to the rights holders, so chances are no one will challenge your youtube post. BUT if you do post music by someone who doesn't want it posted, they can tell youtube and youtube is required to pull your video offline.
I'm working on just breeding my own band... could take a while tho! A lot of musicians, if you just ask them, are fine with you using their music for online videos, especially if you remember to credit them so folks know where to buy the music (Beata & Horacio Cifuentes recently put out an email to this effect regarding their Oriental Fantasy series) -
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Re: videos and availability
Wed, August 26, 2009 - 10:16 AMThat was very helpful, and I thank you!
One of the things that really bothers me is that it is going to be hard to save recordings of the old performance and hard to share them due to these problems. I am speaking of footage from the '60s, '70s and '80s. What covers those?
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Re: videos and availability
Sat, August 29, 2009 - 2:35 PMthey actually just cut the sound out of your video, they dont take it down -
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Re: videos and availability
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 3:55 PMI haven't had personal experience here, but I have talked to several dancers who simply had their videos blocked, & because of the coding they used, it was quite the rigamarole to even repost them with new music overdubbed- maybe that has changed recently, but i can't imagine youtube taking the time to edit the sound out of your clip for you so you can leave it up. Let me know if I'm wrong, it's been a while since my friend had to deal with this!
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Re: videos and availability
Sun, September 6, 2009 - 8:56 PMIt is a tricky subject. Technically if we are using and recording the music then there is liability.
I do video our shows and haflas but only provide the video to performers due to copyright issues for the band/muscian and the performer. If I was selling the dvd for profit then I would want to split with all that are on the dvd. Some decide to only provide that persons performance but like some others mentioned...I do not have time to edit so I get permission from all to provide the whole show to performers only. This is just to provide the performers with the show and their performance. I do allow them to tape/video their performance only too if they want but not others -- they can only video themselves. What they do with the video is really up to them....I do not regulate that. I am not making money off it and really just for them to have a copy of their work -- as we all know that is nice to have and often used for personal growth.
I do have a professional dvd out (with all the legal copyright standards covered - I did purchase rights to the music) and married to a muscian with CDs on the market. So I do understand the need to ensure that we do not ignore the rights of our muscians. I think most muscians would be okay with a performer using their music (with the credit given) and having a copy of the performance - most will see it as an opportunity to get more sales. Most muscians are not going to be okay with someone making money off of their work...rightfully so as I would not be okay with that either.
To me .. if someone wants to post the performance then it is their responsibility to give proper credit. Of course our dvds of the shows are not professional recording so there is no concern of someone selling...if I was selling these for profit then the approach would be for all to give credit and check with the band.
It is a fine line. There are some in other areas (not my or S's area so much - both in Colorado I think).....that do require the performer to get permission from the muscian to even use the music. When I have spoken with muscians here and even bands outside of our area --- most feel that is pretty extreme and are more concerned if the dancer is making money off of their music (on a recording such as dvd sales) more so than using the music for gigs or shows. They do all ask for credit to be given which is important.
Phoenix -
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Re: videos and availability
Sun, September 6, 2009 - 9:10 PMregarding music for gigs & shows (without video issues)
it has always been my understanding that it is the venue's responsibility to secure the license via ascap/bmi (I always forget the third one) for performances, which is usually covered in annual licensing fees in places like restaurants- since playing canned music in a public space is considered a public performance subject to licensing fees- so theoretically the artists get paid that way without you having to contact every single artist you have ever danced to. I know enough musicians to be skeptical about ascap/bmi payments (one friend who is on the radio quite a bit has his one & only, itty bitty bmi check framed in the bathroom), but that's a whole 'nother ball o' wax...
I think even one-off shows are supposed to be getting a license for music used, but who's going to come after a small local hafla or performance? most of us slip under the radar, but if you are organizing a growing event, you might want to look it up!
we try to cover unintended toe stepping by talking up our fave musicos, selling their CDs when we can and making sure our students know where they can buy music. 'Course we are also trying to convince local artists to start a local band we can work with asap too, so we can just go to said band, get permission and be done with it, lol! wouldn't work for every show, but we can dream... -
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Re: videos and availability
Mon, September 7, 2009 - 12:40 PMLicensing for bars/clubs will change state to state....so I am not sure that is covered here....really do not know. I doubt restaurants have to do that so that would be one loop hole. I have seen some groups out here discuss that they get permission to just use the music.
I do think it is really important as you noted to say where to get the music when asked. I did ask one dancer who was using a piece a long time ago....she would not tell me what it was. I later thought about that....and thought "wow bet that band would love to hear that". I know some are worried that if they give out their song then others will use it too.....if it is something really special then I just ask them to note whether we are both in shows. There are some songs I use a lot (including the one I did buy rights to)....but I do not own it so feel it is really horrible to do that to the muscian.
I do carry some local music to my class to sell to students. They really appreciate supporting the local scene and the two bands I do that for also appreciate it....figure it is a win win and also supporting our local scene which is GREAT. Also it does not hurt that I love both CDS anyway and use them a lot (and well married to one of the muscians on one cd -- haha).
The video thing is a fine a line. Technically if you are recording and selling that --- then we should get formal permission. That is why I stay away from professional video at my shows and only provide to performers (with a fee to cover the shipping and cost to them). I like to do that too because I feel that it is giving the performers something in return for their work since I cannot pay all performers at my shows...they are cheap covers and community gatherings. I know many shows sell the DVD for $20 and such....I do struggle with that as mine are $5 to $8 and I do not care if a group buys one and copies -- it is something I started just as a thank you for dancing so keep it that way even though I know I could make money there (just does not feel right making money off the performers who came and danced plus the copyright issue).
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Re: videos and availability
Mon, September 7, 2009 - 12:43 PMHi S...I realize that you also asked about posting someone elses performance. I think that is really not okay unless they have checked with that performer as they may not want to be on youtube or whereever. Most would not care but some might --- it could be something they plan to release in the future. So I would say to tell them that they can post theirs (who cares how old) but if they are wanting it for another persons performance -- why? And may be they should speak with that group first.
I did have someone want the DVD from a show 4 months later. They had not danced in it and wanted to see again something that someone did. I explained that first I do not provide the DVD to the general public but also said....may be go drop in on her class and see about a private. It made me feel the person was going to copy a very original idea that someone had done (it was original too).....so instead marketed her as a teacher. The person completely understood and just had not thought about it that way.....it was very innocent and now she takes classes with that instructor.