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I teach two levels of Improv Tribal - lots of Fat-Chance inspired moves sprinkled with other steps. I'm lucky enough to have live musicians in my intermediate level class. They themselves are students, and they use my class as practice time. It works out great for everyone, really.
However, sometimes I feel bad for my musicians, as the dancers don't appear to be connected to the music. They'll dance a fast combo to slow music, or appear to be moving to some other beat that isn't what the musicians are playing. Sometimes it's because they don't really have the combo or step in their bodies yet, but frequently it looks like they don't understand that they're *supposed* to be connecting with the music because the steps are a given.
A lot of these dancers have studied cabaret & folkloric with other teachers in the area, and I know that the other teachers talk a lot about musicality. So this can't be the first time these dancers have tried to feel the music and dance with it. But how do you teach musicality in Tribal format?
However, sometimes I feel bad for my musicians, as the dancers don't appear to be connected to the music. They'll dance a fast combo to slow music, or appear to be moving to some other beat that isn't what the musicians are playing. Sometimes it's because they don't really have the combo or step in their bodies yet, but frequently it looks like they don't understand that they're *supposed* to be connecting with the music because the steps are a given.
A lot of these dancers have studied cabaret & folkloric with other teachers in the area, and I know that the other teachers talk a lot about musicality. So this can't be the first time these dancers have tried to feel the music and dance with it. But how do you teach musicality in Tribal format?
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Maine
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 11:28 AMIf we were not using the music right our director would stop us from dancing. She would ask us listen to the music and to tell her when a big change was coming in the music and what move would have the most impact, when would slow moves be appropriate when would fast, and for us to list moves, etc.
If she thought we were not connecting enough with the musicians she would tell us to signal the musicians to play different rhythms "x" number of times. This would force us to pay attention to the measure and the musicians and to come up with different ways to signal changes.
This really helped to heighten our awareness of the music and you saw people change from "how many combos can I fit in one song" to "what combos would be appropriate for this part of the music" It also made us really utilize the treading moves to make the most use out of combos with the music. Sometimes you just need to tread :-)
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 11:57 AM"But how do you teach musicality in Tribal format?"
The real question is How do we not? If we are teaching a choreo class, the work of teaching musicality is really moot, for the choreographer has done all the work. But in an improv-based class, teaching musicality is a necessary part, for we must teach dancers to choreograph on the spot.
We must explain that the leaders are responsible for evaluating the rhythms of the song as well as its melody, and we must teach them which movements work best with which rhythms. We must also state the obvious...or what seems obvious to us, anyway; for example, that long combos only work really well with songs with long melodies and are really difficult to use well by beginning dancers who are better off sticking with basic movements that don't require long commitments since they may not be as adept at A) anticipating changes or B) abandoning the combo at the appropriate musical shift. We must also tell them that the music trumps the move, so that if the music changes, the leader should change movements even if she's in the middle of a combo. We're dancers. We make the music visible.
One good way to teach these concepts is to choose an easy song that everyone knows and break it down for them verbally and visually. Then, have them break down a similarly easy song that they know--first as a group, then as individuals.
love,
ali
n.o.madic tribal
new orleans::bellydance
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 8:19 AMThanks so much for these thoughts, Ali - I think what's going on is that it's obvious to *me* where the changes in music/mood/whatever are, but I may not have forced the students to point them out and connect them with different moves. I like the idea of breaking down a song as you suggest - thanks. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 1:19 PMHow familiar are they with the music they are dancing to? I am finding that in my lower level classes, sticking to the same rotation of music for a long time helps (I have to get sick of it...sick to DEATH of it...but they are just getting to know it).
In upper classes, you can do exercises to help them understand the phrasing.
cnx.org/content/m11879/latest/#s1
This discussion of ballroom and swing improvisations will sound very very familiar:
www.eijkhout.net/lead_foll...reaks.html
The second article discusses created mini choreographies to go with certain music to show where the breaks and changes are. In my class we absolutely do this a little bit with just making little combos, and helping out students find the "1" in the song they are dancing to. Walk through the segments of the song with them, demonstrate where the moves will fall in the phrasing. This works best with a piece with a lot of repeated phrasing, but can translate into something more complex if your audience is ready to work at that level.
Students will start to hear and feel the phrasing of the music, and how certain combinations of movements might best treat the phrasing. And that can carry into future works. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 1:21 PMI particularly love this comparison to limericks in the second article. I find that I have a very innate ability to pick out where I am in a given song, even if I haven't heard it before. (I wish I knew how to easily pass that long to my students, but it came from a lifetime of music study (vocal and instrumental, as well as dance backgrounds) and is not something that comes naturally to everyone).:
"Listen to a lot of the music when you're *off* of the dance floor and not thinking about dancing, or try singing along with it... Try to be aware of the point/counterpoint, call-and-answer, etc., character, not just of the words of the verses, but also the lines of the melody. Once you feel where you are in the song, that will tell you, at some subconscious level, when the end of the verse will be. And that's all it takes. Let me give you an example of a related ability. Suppose I read to you the second line of a limerick -- almost any limerick. You'd likely know immediately that it was the second line. Why? Well, from the words, it'll be clear that it's neither the beginning nor the end line; the number of syllables will tell you that it isn't the third or fourth; and the inflection with which these things are usually uttered will nail it down. Now, quick: Do you know how many syllables there will be until the end? Not unless you stop and think about it. But if I start telling you the limerick from the beginning, by the time you hear the second line, you'll have in idea of the rate at which I'm speaking; you'll likely have a good instinctive feel for when it will end. In fact I could mumble the rest of it, just saying
da-da-da-da-da-da da-da-da-da-da-da da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da
"
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 7:52 AMHey.... I'm a musician.. not a dancer... but...
One idea could be.... instead of having dance class one day, have a drum class! Just 1 or 2 drum classes can really really help someone to better understand the foundation of the music (the rhythms). Something about playing them with your own hands really helps to interalize them. You'd be surprised at what can happen with just a single 1 hour drum class or even 2 classes.
I just recently taught a class to all dancers last week. I brought some drums with me, the dancers brought their own and a couple to share and everyone learned alot and had a great time. Plus they were able to ask me the questions they've always wanted to ask.
Blanca and I teach a drum solo class for dancers (and drummers). And we really focus on listening skills. I think you and others are on the right track with "what" to listen for.
I drummed for a class Mimi Fontana was teaching once and I learned sooooooo much about the whole cuing (cue-ing?) system in tribal and the possibilities and it really helped me to be a better musican for Tribal dancers.
It might be crazy.. but if each dancer took 2 drum classes and each musician took 2 dance classes.... we'd probably all work together better :)
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 8:22 AMOh very cool idea! At least one of my dancers has also taken a few drumming classes, but she's not one of the dancers who has difficulty with musicality. (These two things may be related!)
I'm really curious - could you share more about what you learned about cueing, from a musician's perspective? I'd love to share your insights with the musicians who play for my class. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 9:03 AMon cueing...
In this instance... there was the "simmering wall" (I don't know what you call it) but the dancers are in the background doing what in music we call a vamp (a repeated pattern that fits the music).
A soloist would come to the front. Then she could step back and look to either corner, and that dancer would come out and they would do something together.
The dancer could also step backwards towards the wall, then forward and pull out 1 or 2 (or more) dancers.
What's cool is....
I can use the couple of seconds when dancers are mid-exchange to switch rhythms. This is great for kicking it up a notch, or breaking it down. There is a nice short space that I can do a switch.
If I change rhythms when dancers are changing/re-configuring. I can kind of create a song "on the fly" and keep what is going on interesting.
You need to stick to some basic rules of 4. Not do sudden changes. And we need to cue the dancers.. they cue us and each other.
The musicians really need to be watching the dancers (and not transing out or getting lost) and the dancers need to be watching the musicians.
It's kind of hard to explain this stuff :)
(does this make sense)? :)
There is also, nervousness, stage fright, blanking on the choreo, the song, etc.
The other night I just forgot how to play the middle of Aziza. I play that song probably every week of my life and yet I can still just out of nowhere forget the middle of it. But hey.. that's the joy of being in a GROUP you got some others to fall back on if you're having an off time (for musicians and dancers too) :)
-Carmine -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 13, 2009 - 4:13 PMCarmine, thanks for these insights! I love the idea of using the dancer transitions in and out of the chorus as visual cues for you to go into musical transitions. I think my musicians will like this.
And I LOVE the phrase "simmering wall." I'm going to use this. It makes me think of stew. Mm, stew. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Wed, January 14, 2009 - 9:02 AMI absolutely agree with Carmine. I was one of the musically challenged dancers; movements came naturally, but for whatever reason I could not get into the structure of the music, or even recognize that one existed, really. Then I started working with zills, and that helped some....but what really flipped the switch was when my husband started learning to drum. He's a natural whiz, and wanted to do it all the time, but to truly enjoy himself he needed someone to lay down a steady backbeat to riff off of--so I was pressed into service. The process of learning all the different rhythms *with my hands* changed the music for me utterly and forever. It was awesome. :-) I'm no more than a serviceable drummer, but I'm a *much* better dancer thanks to my time spent with a doumbek!
(psssst--and Carmine, you *rock*!!! :-) But of course you know that.)
:-)
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 20, 2009 - 3:49 PMI come from a music background, in that I learned to play rhythm and classical guitar and I've sung. Musicality is very important to me; and when I dance to a song with lyrics, I like to evoke what the words and music are saying. But I have had students who literally don't even listen to modern pop music, don't have favorite songs, etc. I can tell you these are a challenge.
The solution to help them recognize rhythms may be to give them a word key - a friend of mine does it for her drumming classes. For instance, for ayoob, chant "Joe's a loser, Joe's a loser, Joe's a loser, want a cup of coffee!"
For basic beledi, fast, "I want some candy, I want some candy, I want some candy, I want some candy ..." over and over again.
For basic saidi, "I want that ring! (and) I want that ring! (and) I want that ring! (and) I want that ring! (and)" over and over again ...
Bolero, slow: "I find you so ap-peal-ing, I find you so ap-peal-ing, I find you so ap-peal-ing ..." with an emphasis and slight pause on the "I."
I'm working on others ... These are for folks who at this point find a drum or zills too intimidating. The purpose is that if I tell the gals, "this is the 'I want that ring' rhythm," they won't panic on me. ... and feel confident about dancing. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 20, 2009 - 4:22 PMOoh, I like this. Other teachers in this area do that too - I learned beledi as "Oh yeah, I can zill, yeah, I can zill." Chifti is "I am a lit-tle bird, I fly a-way."
I love the one for bolero!
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Tue, January 20, 2009 - 5:11 PMI don't get the "I want some candy" comparison to beledi! Can you clarify?
I use "Boom Boom Bel-e-di, Boom Bel-e-di, (and-a)..." which matches up to 1-1-123-1-123 (12)
Poor Joe in ayub!LOL -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Wed, January 21, 2009 - 10:14 AMThe "I want some candy" is to hit the dums and teks, in a very fast beledi where you can't pick up the ka's easily:
Dum-dum tek dum tek /dum-dum tek dum tek/ dum dum tek dum tek/ dum-dum ...
I want some can-dy/ I want some can-dy/ I want some can-dy/ I want ...
This also works for saidi, because really, it's just-stripped down beledi that goes "dum tek" instead of "dum-dum."
For slower beledi, it's, "I want some cho-co-late, I want it now! (and a ) I want some cho-co-late, I want it now!"
I've had to come up with these things because I do have have some students who throw up a mental wall whenever they any rhythm term ... yes, even "beledi."
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Fri, January 23, 2009 - 6:16 AMVery interesting discussion, but I am not sure I am seeing the connection to "musicality." I was taught ATS format by some of the founders of the form, but i know that that is not the only type of tribal out there. I am not a tribal dancer per se, so I am at a disadvantage to people who do this format primarily or exclusively, but it sounds to me like most of you are describing how to dance to the beat and perhaps the music in a gross kind of way. What I mean is, you are dancing improvisationally in a 4/4 (or whatever time signature the music is, if the group knows how to switch up) and interpreting whether the music is smooth, percussive or travel or some combination. But the set repertoire is still the set repertoire, right? If I understand that correctly, I don't see that as "musicality" because there are severe limitations on what you can interpret and how. Can someone please enlighten me?
Taaj
www.taaj.org -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Fri, January 23, 2009 - 7:44 AMyes, the first thing in ATS is to learn to dance to beat. It seems to be very tempting to rush the beat, for new dancers who are just learning the steps, which are outwardly simple (there are only a few foot patterns). You have to know where the 1 is in a song, and be able to hear phrasing, because that is where the cue to change moves occurs: between measures or phrases.
There's more to doing ATS then just a bunch of prescribed steps, however. You can also change leads, circle around, do pass throughs, and formation changes. Some steps work better with some kinds of music than others..percussive earthy shimmies vs. up on the toes subtler arabic basic. There are really active moves with lots of skirt swishing like egytians, with dramatic spins and moves which don't move a whole lot like choochoo. If the group is being musical, then you can do your moves and transitions appropriately when the music or rhythm changes. That way it looks like the groups is actually dancing vs. "I know 5 moves and I am going to run through them in order regardless of what the music is doing!" sort of thing. It's pretty difficult to pull this off especially if your brain shorts out during a performance and you get stuck in your default move :)
It's helpful to me if someone is drumming plain rhythms for my class if they do the rule of 4 phrase thing, where the 4th measure is different somehow (different fill or bridge etc). It makes for a more logical place to demonstrate cues and transitions. Sometimes I will lose count while I am talking and he will try to fix it and catch up to me. Which is actually more confusing for me since i am used to just listening and getting back on the train when it comes around.
In slow music the moves are arrhythmic so you really need to listen to the phrasing of the music so that your pacing makes sense to the dancers following you. You can do what Carolena calls "dramatic slow" where there may be a fast drumbeat, but slow melody which you can do your slow moves with, and this can be your non 4/4 rhythm opportunity also.
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Fri, January 23, 2009 - 12:57 PMPeregrinekt made the best points, and I want to clarify even further by saying that I have had students who can't identify a moderately fast rhythm from a moderately slow one or identify that the melody instruments' counterpoint may also give clues as to what kinds of moves to do. They don't know where a measure of music begins or where it ends. I'm finding now that by at least giving these students some rhythm reminder phrases, they can identify a beat and feel comfortable enough with it so that bit by bit, they an "absorb" other points about the music.
I'm sure that for teachers who teach choreographies, they have a hard time with getting certain students to improv. These same students may learn the choreographies beautifully, but are so musically unaware that they can't figure out why the teacher insisted on certain moves in one part of the song and different moves in another. They know lots of moves, but have no idea how to string them together, because they don't know how to listen to a piece of music. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Sun, January 25, 2009 - 5:12 AMHm, that still doesn't sound like musicality to me. I guess we just have definitions of the word. Thanks for the clarification.
Taaj -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Sun, January 25, 2009 - 7:05 AMCertainly in ATS/ITS format, we do have movement limitations, because we need to be able to cue and follow each other, but we can feel connected to the music. You're right, it is in a large, overarching kind of way -- changing up the steps based on what the music is doing, making a turn faster or slower, making any given move lighter or big & juicier. But we still have to be able to listen and understand where the music is going in order to have a cohesive looking presentation. There's a big difference for me in dancing *to* the music and dancing *with* the music, and I can see the difference even in ATS/ITS groups.
I'm interested in your definition of musicality. Certainly in Middle Eastern dance styles, there can much more subtle connection going on -- understanding when & how to move based on what the instrumentation is doing, the voice, the drum. Is that what you mean? -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Sun, January 25, 2009 - 9:57 AMI would be curious of your definition as well, Taaj. While I agree the interpretations are more limited in group improv, musicality is definitely still employed to great effect, IMO.
mu·si·cal·i·ty (myz-kl-t)
n.
1. The quality or condition of being musical.
2. Musical sensitivity or talent.
I think you will likely find the most musicality in slow pieces, because there is much more freedom there. But it is still present in fast. -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Mon, January 26, 2009 - 11:20 AMperhaps she means emotional emoting type of musical interpretation ? (it's a happy song, we're dancing happy, its a sad song we're dancing sad, etc?) -
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Re: Feeling connected to the music with tribal
Mon, January 26, 2009 - 11:45 AMOr perhaps Taaj, your definition of musicality has more to do with changing the entire movement movement to suit a specific phrase.
In Tribal, we will definitely change the *quality* of movement, and the placement and timing of music to suit the music. While moves themselves are more set in stone as to how they are mechanically executed, there is some play within that structure to change the quality of the movement and play with where and when and how it is implemented to best suit the musical phrasing and emotional content.
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