A whole new level of difficult student

topic posted Sun, April 6, 2008 - 10:39 AM by  Minya
First, here's the background story (in much greater detail than necessar,y I'm sure): In May, I will have been teaching my class for 5 years. I teach Fall, Spring and an early summer class. The first class I taught was in Summer 2003 and one of the very first students I had was an older woman named "M". At first M drifted in and out of classes, skipping a semester then back and drifting in and out of classes. Now for the past 3 years solid she has been in every fall and spring class. I have become very fond of her and my assistant and I have become very involved with her life.

Now this spring semester I was delighted to see on my spring roster, the name of a former university employee I used to sit on committees with. "C" is one of those people who would always say, "I am going to take your class this semester!" but never did. Well, she finally signed up. The first class came, I gave her a big hug etc. Great to see you, nice to meet your friend etc. The 2nd beginning class is when the 1st int/adv class starts (their classes are longer so they have less classes). The beginning class is taking a quick water break and in walks "M." I'm talking through some moves with students and see "C" has gone over to "M" and is hugging her. It made me smile that someone else loves "M" as much as me. Class starts back up from the break and "C" walks to the front. I smiled and said, "How do you know M?" C smiles and says, "She's my sister in law!" I begin to gush about what a wonderful woman M is and how I just love her so much and so on. C just smiles and says, "Yeah, she's great!" So we're at the end of class and C asks if she and her friend can sit at the back of the class to watch the next class. Students ask that all the time so I naturally said yes. My assistant comes over to me and whispers tersely under her breath, "They can't stay!" Students are transitioning and there is a bustle of activity and all I am doing is looking at her blankly like HUH? Students are standing in line to ask questions and she says again quietly, "They can't stay!" I must have looked like a fish with my mouth hanging open and blinking rapidly. "We always let students stay and I already told them they could."

My assistant is my best friend of 17 years, you would think the warning bells would have been so loud that it would have seemed like her mouth was moving and nothing was coming out. "We need to talk after class." Ok.

So int/adv class starts and we begin our opening drills and move into zill drills. I notice that C and her friend leaves followed a little while later by M and my assistant (who later come back).

During the water break for the int/adv class my assistant gets my attention and tells me the story. C *was* M's sister in law (M's ex-husband's sister). The ex-husband's family is all incredibly abusive to her even to this day. They go out of their way to make her life a living hell and call her nasty names to her face (not even to her back)...basically every horrible thing a group of people could do to torture a person...they have done and continue to do. I was mortified. After class was over and turned to find M a few feet from me. We locked eyes and I said, "I am SO sorry!" And she began to cry. "This is *my* place! This is where I come to get away from them!" When C went to give M her hug, she hissed at her, "Chris (me) is *my* friend."

It's not like C's being overtly nasty but she is silently torturing M. M is quite heavy set and has slightly deformed feet so some moves are a little more difficult for her to her credit she tries everything I throw at her. She's become even more aware now of her faults and it's obvious that coming to class is wearing on her nerves. But she keeps coming with a smile on her face. A few weeks ago C tried to sneakily take a picture of M while she was dancing but another student intervened.

Obviously, I can't toss her out of class and I can't prevent her from taking class. Members of my int/adv class have taken to forming themselves around M as a barrier. I don't know what else to do. I just keep praying that it's getting old for C and she won't sign up again but then again, torturing M seems to a family past time. I must confess, after C told me she had hip replacement surgery some years ago and it still bothered her, I deliberately did really intensive hip drills. I may go to hell now (or in my case, a lower ring of hell) but it made me giggle.
posted by:
Minya
Nevada
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Sun, April 6, 2008 - 1:42 PM
    <Obviously, I can't toss her out of class>

    Hell yes you can!! Why can't you? C telling M that you are HER friend and trying to take pictures of her in class is certainly being overtly nasty. If others in the class are being affected by her behavior, which they obviously are, then it is your responsibility as a teacher to get this woman out of your class. Pronto. Like, the next time she shows up, don't let her in, and tell her why.

    I am sorry you are having to deal with this...but seriously, try to look at it objectively just as an instructor and not a friend to M. C is disrupting your class. Kick her out.
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Sun, April 6, 2008 - 3:46 PM
    I think it is reasonable to tell someone who is intimidating/disrupting/harrassing other students to leave your class. Those kinds of things are unwelcome in your classroom.
    • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

      Sun, April 6, 2008 - 4:38 PM
      I don't know. I wouldn't feel right kicking someone out of class unless they did something problematic *in class*. The fact that they have a conflict outside of class I would consider to be none of my business. At most I might talk to C and say that I'm aware she and M have a history and my expectation for all students is that in class everyone be polite and cooperative.
      • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

        Sun, April 6, 2008 - 6:04 PM
        But according to Minya, C is harassing M in class, to the point where other students feel the need to shield M from C. That, to me, constitutes an "in class" problem. In fact, it seems to me that C is actually using Minya's class mostly to antagonize M.

        I agree that if this were all going on outside of class then it wouldn't merit direct action, but it's affecting the students. And when that happens, it's a teacher's responsibility to take action one way or another.
        • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

          Sun, April 6, 2008 - 7:14 PM
          The class is through the local community college so she is signed up as more than just a student of the class, she's a student through the school itself.

          I almost wish she would start like..I dunno...a fistfight or something then I could say HEY, no fistfighting in class! You're out! C has taken her outside nastiest and brought it into the classroom. On Friday night, I saw that C and M were talking in the back. It looked civil enough but I know it probably wasn't all that pleasant. M's face was very composed the whole time.

          It is all pyschological and ment to wear M down. Luckily, it's making M push back harder but she shouldn't have to. And I wonder, did C take the class because she finally got around to taking it after all the years of saying she would? M mentioned that her ex-mother in law and emailed her and attacked her. M's response was something to the effect of "I like my life. I'm doing what I want to do. I'm belly dancing...etc" And lo and behold, C shows up in class.
          • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

            Sun, April 6, 2008 - 9:40 PM
            Does this community college not have rules about harassment? If she is attempting to take pictures of her in class and making nasty remarks to her in class, then she is creating a hostile environment for another student and as such should be in violation of any rules regarding harassment. You may not be able to outright oust her from class without due process, but you can certainly file some form of report and get the behavior you have witnessed on record at the school.
          • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

            Mon, April 7, 2008 - 1:07 PM
            Have you considered discussing the situation privately with M and seeing how she feels about it?

            I tend to fall on the side of giving C the boot, but then again, there's always the possibility that M is actually gaining strength from this experience--being defended by her classmates, realizing she's coming from a position of power by facing C down in a place M has every reason to consider her own.....finding out how she feels overall might help you decide how to approach things.

            Good luck. It's an ugly situation no matter what.
            • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

              Mon, April 7, 2008 - 7:43 PM
              I'll ask her if she wants me to intervene. Cuz all I'm really looking for is a green light. There's 3 classes left in the semester so M just may say to let it be.

              Totally stupid geek analogy, I feel like Obi Wan in Phantom Menace. Qui-Gon and Darth Maul are fighting on one side of the force field and all Obi Wan can do is pace around on the other side--waiting for the field to drop so he can come running to help.
      • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

        Fri, April 18, 2008 - 5:43 AM
        From my "professional business person, try to be impartial" side of being an instructor, I agree with Renee's post..
        But the "mentor, friend, mother hen" side says "C should go". M has been a student for a long time, you seem to have a lot of respect for her efforts, students like her are the backbone of your business. It sounds like C finally got around to coming to your class just to have access to M with the intent of being mean. If it continues, you will likely lose M, she'll quit coming to avoid the drama. When she's gone, C will have no reason to be there any more, her target is gone. I could see this resulting in the loss of both students, and perhaps damaging your relationship with M. The fact that M's classmates have created a protective circle around her says a lot.
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Sun, April 6, 2008 - 5:13 PM
    This may sound cruel, but what happens outside the classroom is not your problem to deal with, you don't really have the right, you don't really know what is going on in people's private worlds even if on the surface it seems very clear. I'm assuming they are all adults? You can intervene if any of it becomes disruptive or disrespectful to the learning enviroment or breaks any of your class policies in any way. No one should be taking pictures in your class without your or the students' permission, period. I would tread very carefully in getting involved except to deal with the issues that directly affect your classroom instruction.
    • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

      Sun, April 6, 2008 - 7:17 PM
      This may sound cruel, but what happens outside the classroom is not your problem to deal with...

      That's just it, it shouldn't be! It's like having to sit on my hands except my hands are claws and they want to rip C's face off.
      • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 6:59 AM
        I would start by filing a complaint with the school...bring M with you and have her file a complaint as well. This let's the school know that you, as the teacher, are aware of a problem and are taking steps to correct it. Because you are an employee of the school, I understand that your hands are somewhat tied here, but the school can prohibit C from registering for the class again based on Appendix L, section 1 of said schools code "Commission of any act interfering with academic freedom" Section 2 "The use of, or threat to use, force or violence against any member or guest of the System community, except when lawfully permissible" Section 10 "The repeated use of obscene or abusive language in a classroom or public meeting of the System where such usage is beyond the bounds of generally accepted good taste and which, if occurring in a class, is not significantly related to the teaching of the subject matter"

        I'm assuming M has a documented case history of harrassment (I volunteered with M senior year...while I'm not 100% sure who C is, I have a good guess), so it shouldn't be too hard to prove that C actually signed up for the class with the express intent of torturing M. As such, the first offense grants "Exclusion for a definite period of time from attending classes and from participating in other activities of the System, as set forth in a written notice to the student. The official transcript of the student shall be marked "DISCIPLINARY SUSPENSION EFFECTIVE (date) TO (date)." Parents or legal guardians of minor students shall be notified of the action" followed by "Termination of student registration and status for an indefinite period of time. Permission of the president shall be required for readmission. The official transcript of the student shall be marked "DISCIPLINARY EXPULSION EFFECTIVE (date)." The parents or legal guardians of minor students shall be notified of the action."

        Hope some of that helps...I can also look up state laws if you would like, although just using the schools bylaws should work. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
        • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

          Thu, April 17, 2008 - 1:10 PM
          Katrina, if you know anything about what M does then it makes this whole situation even more perplexing. She is a victims rights advocate. Her job is dealing with EXACTLY this! My understanding is that she wants to keep an open line of communication with her ex-family for her childrens' sake. She's afraid her children will suffer so she smiles and takes it.

          It makes me nuts!!!
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Mon, April 7, 2008 - 6:52 AM
    You could make it a policy not to let students stay and watch the int/adv class. Some studios make this a rule, so that the dancers who are participating in the class are not distracted or made to feel self-conscious. That would solve the problem, at least during bellydance class.
    • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

      Tue, April 8, 2008 - 3:44 PM
      I would have to say that I would do this first.

      Obviously M felt comfortable learning from you, she came back time and again. I teach middle school, so I tend to have the feeling that my students need a little of my protection.

      I think that a change in policy should happen, and everyone who is not part of the class needs to leave.

      But, I would probably let C know that I was disappointed in her behavior. She is an adult and she should understand the concept of karma. I wouldn't stop her from coming to the beginner class, but I would stop her from staying to watch the other and I would let her know my expectations for behavior and that I expect her to exceed those expectations, because she wouldn't want someone to treat her like that.

      If you just change the policy without giving C a specific reason, she will walk away thinking that she has done nothing wrong, and you changed it for another reason. It's the "I didn't do anything wrong" principle. If you have a problem with someone and make a blanket statement, they will never figure out whether or not they need to change their attitude.

      Just my 2 cents.
      Trish

      Trish
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Wed, April 9, 2008 - 3:30 PM
    If I'm repeating what someone else has said already, I apologize but I don't have time to read every post in detail.

    My comment... this is bullying. If it were happening in a high school the student would be sent home and reported to the authorities (which vary by region). Student "C" needs a good kick in the keister... metaphorically speaking. That would be giving her the boot... out you go if you don't know how to behave in public. I teach in a Community Centre and if I decided that a student needs to go, I'd just tell the Program Director what was happening and tell her to get the b*t*h out of my class. It could come back on the CC if they did nothing. For instance, what happens in C harasses M so much that M and all her friends go somewhere else for classes? Where are you and the CC then? No students, no class, no money. And a possible law suit.
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:28 AM
    It is not for "M" to do anything.. it is for the teacher to tell "C" that she is being inappropriate and hurtful and if she does not stop she will be asked to leave.
    Also if M in intermediate and C is beginner.. there is no reason for C to be watching the intermadiate class... and as a teacher - it is your responsibilty to keep all students happy.
    Cut out the trouble..M has put in the time and desearves her space in class, oh so much more than C.. and frankly - i wouldn't be suprised if C new M would be there.
    • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

      Sun, April 13, 2008 - 2:51 PM
      Í'd bet my life savings on the fact that the only reason C decided to attend the class (you did say she had resisted for a long time) was because she found out M was in the class.
      • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

        Mon, April 14, 2008 - 2:31 PM
        This sounds like kind of a weird idea, but it just popped into my head so I'm going to say it (usually not a good idea, but hey). Aside from not allowing spectators in classes (which I don't allow either and I feel is a good idea in general), perhaps "M" could not come to the beginner classes for, oh I dunno, 3 or 4 weeks, with the intimation that she's decided to quit, and see if "C" doesn't just mysteriously lose interest in classes? It's not really fair for "M", granted, to not come because of "C", even for a couple of weeks, but it would be public confirmation that "C"s intentions are of the malicious kind, and if she doesn't know that "M" comes back, problem solved (as long as M doesn't let out any more info to mom-in-law, that is).

        I dunno. Maybe it really wouldn't do any good. Just thinking out loud... Personally I'd love to kick her out on her you-know-what. If you and "M" can come up with some kind of proof that she is there expressly to harass "M", then by all means you can give her the boot. Unless you have some kind of proof though, it's not likely to hold up in any kind of arbitration (is it? those knowledgeable of the regulations help me out here...)

        I do understand your predicament, since you aren't just a teacher you are also M's friend. It puts you in a very awkward position.
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 11:52 PM
    Oooo..... Nastiness! I'm sorry for you and M!

    I'm for full-on, open communication. Everybody knows C's a pain. She probably knows everybody knows. Just talk to her. Tell her you know the story and that she needs to step off, politely, otherwise, you'll have to change your policy and not allow *anyone* to observe classes in order to protect the each individual in each class. A more aggressive approach would be to just change your observation policy and tell her you will not allow any personal drama in your studio, before, during or after classes. If she brings baggage to class, she'll have to leave with it. No dropping it off anymore. IOW... just say it like it is. Honesty is usually the best policy. And you're kind of required to not let it get warm and fuzzy since it's a public institution. If this doesn't work... then politely ask her to leave the class. If that doesn't work, then you will need to speak to the administration.

    Good luck!
  • Re: A whole new level of difficult student

    Thu, May 1, 2008 - 3:02 PM
    Just a suggestion: perhaps you should reconsider the policy of letting beginner students watch the intermediates class? In this situation, it would give you a good excuse to not have these two in the room together, but there are other reasons as well:
    a) perhaps you are losing would-be intermediate students because they do not like the idea of others watching them as they are leargning?
    b)the students who are watching are benefitting from your instruction (even if they are not up & moving) and should pay to receive instruction. They are basically getting free lessons from you. Not to be a spinster, but it stands to reason that your instruction has monetary value - equal to the amount you charge for classes - and if one student has to pay, so should another.

    I know that doesn't very much deal with the situation at hand, but may be a good "cop out" way of separating these two from each other, and may benefit the business side in the long run.

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